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Philosophy - a pool of blockbuster ideas
Author
Its pretty interesting how many successes, stories that are based on some philosopher''s work have.
For example the matrix was based on the works of Jean Bauldrillard - simulation and simulacra. Minority report was based on Staurt Mill''s utilitarianism - specifically on the paragraph "On Minority Opinion".
Im pretty sure you guys understand what im getting at - philosophy makes good stories. The question is, will philosophical stories work in games?
Games are about interactivity. Philosophy is about linear thought. It''s not uncommon for a game to have philosophical undertones like a movie but making a game out of Socrates would be quite impossible.
Philosophy is used more in story telling. One thing that may be possible is to create a game that is logical only within it''s paradigm. Like a language but with a world. The player would need to explore to see how the world works to make his way through it.
Ben
IcarusIndie.com [ The Rabbit Hole | The Labyrinth | DevZone | Gang Wars | The Wall | Hosting ]
Philosophy is used more in story telling. One thing that may be possible is to create a game that is logical only within it''s paradigm. Like a language but with a world. The player would need to explore to see how the world works to make his way through it.
Ben
IcarusIndie.com [ The Rabbit Hole | The Labyrinth | DevZone | Gang Wars | The Wall | Hosting ]
I don''t think philosophy is linear thought, I think it''s about patterns of thought, which are the very opposite of linear. Pretty much every game rewards certain philosophies and punishes others (try to win any traditional RPG by being a pacifist, e.g. running away from monsters). In my opinion the philosophy a work of fiction such as a game story expresses is what makes that fiction meaningful (in terms of the audience being able to learn from it and apply the lessons to their lives). On the other hand, it''s important not to be bombastic, didactic, or otherwise force your opinions onto your audience.
quote: Original post by KalvinB
Games are about interactivity. Philosophy is about linear thought.
Yes on the first part - not necessarily on the second part. In some cases, linearity is eschewed - but rather than get caught in a circle - the aspiration is towards the spiral - not quite linear, not quite circular - but something of both. Adorno, Baudrillard and other "thinkers" that aren''t always given the name "philosophers".
quote: Original post by KalvinB
It''s not uncommon for a game to have philosophical undertones like a movie but making a game out of Socrates would be quite impossible.
Um - I don''t think it would be impossible. Consider that Socrates is depicted as a rather playful person in some of the dialogues. Granted, it''s a subtlety of the text, but still someone with enough familiarity of the subject and the skill might be able to feret a game of somekind out of it. Also consider that Socrates'' style - the dialogue - is a form of interaction.
quote: Original post by KalvinB
Philosophy is used more in story telling. One thing that may be possible is to create a game that is logical only within it''s paradigm. Like a language but with a world. The player would need to explore to see how the world works to make his way through it.
Philosophy as literature? At any rate, this approach seems reasonable.
Author
You guys realize im talking about taking a certain concept from a philosopher and building around it, dont you?
That is what has been done in both the Matrix and Minority Report. Of corse the plot and settings are going to be different, but the underlying concept remains the same.
Im not sure if anyone would want to play a word for word repleca of The Republic, or any other philosophical work. If, however, you take a concept like Plato''s alegory of the cave and created a plot for a game where the main character breaks free of reality (the cave) and begins "altering forms" and gains these awesome powers (sound familiar?) then you have yourself a plot.
Here''s an idea I just pulled from my Philosophy source book. What if we had a hero archtype, and we put him in a society (the setting is irrilevent). Throughout the game, the hero is lead to realize that every facet of the lives of the NPCs around him hold true to Machiavelli''s the Price and in order for him to gain success, he must reach Machiavelli''s conclusions (so we are now playing on the concept of social behaviour that Machiavelli outlines). The game then consists of the hero learning to thrive in this society, as he "Plays social chess" with the people around him to his advantage. His new found skill then leads him into the "command centre" of society; a collection of individuals who possess the same skills as the hero, fine tuned, and they have the power to lead this society. The story could culminate into a confrontation between the hero and the "command centre." A setting for such a story could range from medieval to present to futuristic. However, the concept of society and social interaction as a chess board, and individuals as pieces on this chess board is still constant.
So Philosophy should be used to seed concepts into a story. The actual plot and settings revolve around this concept.
That is what has been done in both the Matrix and Minority Report. Of corse the plot and settings are going to be different, but the underlying concept remains the same.
Im not sure if anyone would want to play a word for word repleca of The Republic, or any other philosophical work. If, however, you take a concept like Plato''s alegory of the cave and created a plot for a game where the main character breaks free of reality (the cave) and begins "altering forms" and gains these awesome powers (sound familiar?) then you have yourself a plot.
Here''s an idea I just pulled from my Philosophy source book. What if we had a hero archtype, and we put him in a society (the setting is irrilevent). Throughout the game, the hero is lead to realize that every facet of the lives of the NPCs around him hold true to Machiavelli''s the Price and in order for him to gain success, he must reach Machiavelli''s conclusions (so we are now playing on the concept of social behaviour that Machiavelli outlines). The game then consists of the hero learning to thrive in this society, as he "Plays social chess" with the people around him to his advantage. His new found skill then leads him into the "command centre" of society; a collection of individuals who possess the same skills as the hero, fine tuned, and they have the power to lead this society. The story could culminate into a confrontation between the hero and the "command centre." A setting for such a story could range from medieval to present to futuristic. However, the concept of society and social interaction as a chess board, and individuals as pieces on this chess board is still constant.
So Philosophy should be used to seed concepts into a story. The actual plot and settings revolve around this concept.
"I don''t think philosophy is linear thought, I think it''s about patterns of thought, which are the very opposite of linear."
Linear as in has a fixed goal (the conclusion) with a fixed path to reach it (the premises). Philosophy at best I think could be used most effectivly in Adventure games where you have a fixed path but with some interactivity to discover the path. Perhaps an adventure game without a written plot. The Game About Nothing. The "goal" is to figure out what the point of it all is or the "Meaning of Life." However depending on how you play the game, your "meaning" changes.
"So Philosophy should be used to seed concepts into a story."
Philosophy makes for great stories. But that''s only background and not the game. For instance Alice has quite a story to it but it''s completely irrelevant in terms of game play. If you took the background out of Alice you''d still have a game.
The challenge isn''t comming up with a deep story but using it in such a way that taking the philosophy out of the game would make it no longer a game.
For instance "The Cave." If you took it and made a game using that story it would be nifty. But if you took "The Cave" out of it you''d have still have Quake.
Ben
IcarusIndie.com [ The Rabbit Hole | The Labyrinth | DevZone | Gang Wars | The Wall | Hosting ]
Linear as in has a fixed goal (the conclusion) with a fixed path to reach it (the premises). Philosophy at best I think could be used most effectivly in Adventure games where you have a fixed path but with some interactivity to discover the path. Perhaps an adventure game without a written plot. The Game About Nothing. The "goal" is to figure out what the point of it all is or the "Meaning of Life." However depending on how you play the game, your "meaning" changes.
"So Philosophy should be used to seed concepts into a story."
Philosophy makes for great stories. But that''s only background and not the game. For instance Alice has quite a story to it but it''s completely irrelevant in terms of game play. If you took the background out of Alice you''d still have a game.
The challenge isn''t comming up with a deep story but using it in such a way that taking the philosophy out of the game would make it no longer a game.
For instance "The Cave." If you took it and made a game using that story it would be nifty. But if you took "The Cave" out of it you''d have still have Quake.
Ben
IcarusIndie.com [ The Rabbit Hole | The Labyrinth | DevZone | Gang Wars | The Wall | Hosting ]
I think an underexplored method is pushing the user towards a particular philosophy through the game mechanisms.
For instance, one might create a game story based on the theory of knowledge, and in part make puzzles which play on the difference between the internal act of perception and the external perceptive stimulus, and have a guide gently explain the difficulties the player is having in terms of those differences.
For an actual example, Wing Commander IV did a nice job in making the player think about utilitarian happiness, simply by having both sides argue in cinematics, and then presenting a major plot-choice.
Sadly, there aren''t many other examples in practice.
mlylecarlin
For instance, one might create a game story based on the theory of knowledge, and in part make puzzles which play on the difference between the internal act of perception and the external perceptive stimulus, and have a guide gently explain the difficulties the player is having in terms of those differences.
For an actual example, Wing Commander IV did a nice job in making the player think about utilitarian happiness, simply by having both sides argue in cinematics, and then presenting a major plot-choice.
Sadly, there aren''t many other examples in practice.
mlylecarlin
quote: Original post by KalvinB
"I don''t think philosophy is linear thought, I think it''s about patterns of thought, which are the very opposite of linear."
Linear as in has a fixed goal (the conclusion) with a fixed path to reach it (the premises). Philosophy at best I think could be used most effectivly in Adventure games where you have a fixed path but with some interactivity to discover the path. Perhaps an adventure game without a written plot. The Game About Nothing. The "goal" is to figure out what the point of it all is or the "Meaning of Life." However depending on how you play the game, your "meaning" changes.
But philosophy does not have a fixed goal, it has a qualitative and occasionally quantitative goal. E.g. I am a hedonist (among other things) so one of my goals is to live my life in such a way that I enjoy it as much as possible. This involves lots of subsidiary goals which are more linear: getting rich, avoiding pain and death, understanding myself so I can determine what will make me happy, etc.
The problem with unplotted games is that they don''t have satisfying dramatic tension or climaxes. Although a stellazio story (the kind where you can read the parts in any order) might help. I haven''t the faintest idea how to write one though.
Hi Bishop_pass!
Yes, I''m alive.
quote: Original post by sunandshadow
But philosophy does not have a fixed goal, it has a qualitative and occasionally quantitative goal. E.g. I am a hedonist (among other things) so one of my goals is to live my life in such a way that I enjoy it as much as possible. This involves lots of subsidiary goals which are more linear: getting rich, avoiding pain and death, understanding myself so I can determine what will make me happy, etc.
I think this brings up the question, "What is philosophy?" - does it concern itself with the "love of wisdom" - or does it concern itself with the rigorous logical grounding of intellectual endeavors? (ie epistemology).
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