Today I was thinking about painting, and how some of my favorite paintings have lots of symbolic meaning but stupid literal meanings. For example, a cat with butterfly wings - literally this is stupid because butterfly wings are much to weak and fragile for a cat to be able to fly with them, but symbolically if I chose to have one of my characters in a game or story look like a cat with butterfly wings, with just that image I can convey that the character is supposed to have a cat-like personality and the kind of fragile, mystical energy associated with butterflies.
In both reading and writing I like logical worldbuilding that lets me use my social and economic knowledge to predict the details the writer neglects, to predict how problems can be solved and how characters will react to things. On the other hand I also like surreal books where everything operates on dream-logic because this type of book feels meaningful and renewing and beautiful, etc.
I am currently trying to write a novel, possibly to become a grphic novel (comic-book novel). Thus my dilemma - should I try to write a literal book or a symbolic book? Would blending the two work or reduce the effectiveness of both and confuse the reader''s expectations? What do you suggest, and why?
🎉 Celebrating 25 Years of GameDev.net! 🎉
Not many can claim 25 years on the Internet! Join us in celebrating this milestone. Learn more about our history, and thank you for being a part of our community!
symbolism vs. literalism, advice please?
Author
Hi all! Today I was thinking about painting, and how some of my favorite paintings have lots of symbolic meaning but stupid literal meanings. For example, a cat with butterfly wings - literally this is stupid because butterfly wings are much to weak and fragile for a cat to be able to fly with them, but symbolically if I chose to have one of my characters in a game or story look like a cat with butterfly wings, with just that image I can convey that the character is supposed to have a cat-like personality and the kind of fragile, mystical energy associated with butterflies.
In both reading and writing I like logical worldbuilding that lets me use my social and economic knowledge to predict the details the writer neglects, to predict how problems can be solved and how characters will react to things. On the other hand I also like surreal books where everything operates on dream-logic because this type of book feels meaningful and renewing and beautiful, etc.
I am currently trying to write a novel, possibly to become a grphic novel (comic-book novel). Thus my dilemma - should I try to write a literal book or a symbolic book? Would blending the two work or reduce the effectiveness of both and confuse the reader''s expectations? What do you suggest, and why?
Today I was thinking about painting, and how some of my favorite paintings have lots of symbolic meaning but stupid literal meanings. For example, a cat with butterfly wings - literally this is stupid because butterfly wings are much to weak and fragile for a cat to be able to fly with them, but symbolically if I chose to have one of my characters in a game or story look like a cat with butterfly wings, with just that image I can convey that the character is supposed to have a cat-like personality and the kind of fragile, mystical energy associated with butterflies.
In both reading and writing I like logical worldbuilding that lets me use my social and economic knowledge to predict the details the writer neglects, to predict how problems can be solved and how characters will react to things. On the other hand I also like surreal books where everything operates on dream-logic because this type of book feels meaningful and renewing and beautiful, etc.
I am currently trying to write a novel, possibly to become a grphic novel (comic-book novel). Thus my dilemma - should I try to write a literal book or a symbolic book? Would blending the two work or reduce the effectiveness of both and confuse the reader''s expectations? What do you suggest, and why?
Maybe you should resort to creating your own types of creatures, explaining them, and then making characters based on them.
For example, make up a creature similar to a butterfly, with a different appearance and similar act. Explain this creature and then explain why your cat carries the wings of this creature upon it''s back.
The logical appearance of a character doesn''t matter as much, to me, as the symbolism expressing how this character acts.
For example, make up a creature similar to a butterfly, with a different appearance and similar act. Explain this creature and then explain why your cat carries the wings of this creature upon it''s back.
The logical appearance of a character doesn''t matter as much, to me, as the symbolism expressing how this character acts.
Symbolism can be all right as long as you''re story doesn''t rely on it. I really despise nearly all intensely allegorical writing though, so I don''t really expect to pass my first year in college literature class next year.
I think that stories should be moving, engaging, or full of moral insights. Unless you are a master writer, allegory tends to spoil two of these three virtues.
As for moral insights, have you ever read Orson Scott Card? As far as I can tell, there is almost no allegory in any of his stories, yet they manage to be more moving, engaging, full of moral insights, and downright bizarre than almost anything else I''ve ever read. If you''re into science fiction, I recommend that you read Ender''s Game. If you like that book, I recommend that you read everything else written by the man. He writes both fantasy and science fiction and is a master of both, by my standards. His books are some of the only books I''ve ever read that were capable of breaking writer''s block. Try them!!
I think that stories should be moving, engaging, or full of moral insights. Unless you are a master writer, allegory tends to spoil two of these three virtues.
As for moral insights, have you ever read Orson Scott Card? As far as I can tell, there is almost no allegory in any of his stories, yet they manage to be more moving, engaging, full of moral insights, and downright bizarre than almost anything else I''ve ever read. If you''re into science fiction, I recommend that you read Ender''s Game. If you like that book, I recommend that you read everything else written by the man. He writes both fantasy and science fiction and is a master of both, by my standards. His books are some of the only books I''ve ever read that were capable of breaking writer''s block. Try them!!
I suggest that you don''t worry about it. Because you can''t avoid either creeping into the representation of any work of significance, the real trick is to get it down the way you want to, then go back and use the tools of the trade to hone it down, pump it up, or do whatever to either the logic or the symbology to get them to work in concert.
Never, ever judge a first draft, and for god''s sake, don''t prejudge one. Enjoy the process and discover yourself doing it, all the rigidity and control you are displaying will only restrict the subconscious assistance you will need to raise the quality of the expression.
It''s not a balance between logic or symbology, symbology is a tool, and symbols are the simplest representation of highly complex logic or logical concepts. Ride like a cork on the wave, don''t pull your product through a uniformity collar. Any work that''s going to be worth it''s weight will demonstrate that ably only after you are done, not before. That is not to say planning or outlining isn''t critical, it is in a structural and productive sense, but it is there only to assist your being able to fly on my sweet angel (hendrix) during scenes.
Never, ever judge a first draft, and for god''s sake, don''t prejudge one. Enjoy the process and discover yourself doing it, all the rigidity and control you are displaying will only restrict the subconscious assistance you will need to raise the quality of the expression.
It''s not a balance between logic or symbology, symbology is a tool, and symbols are the simplest representation of highly complex logic or logical concepts. Ride like a cork on the wave, don''t pull your product through a uniformity collar. Any work that''s going to be worth it''s weight will demonstrate that ably only after you are done, not before. That is not to say planning or outlining isn''t critical, it is in a structural and productive sense, but it is there only to assist your being able to fly on my sweet angel (hendrix) during scenes.
quote: Original post by adventuredesign
Never, ever judge a first draft, and for god''s sake, don''t prejudge one.
that a way, adventure! i agree completely with your post.
i would say not to worry when you first lay it out. as you get further along, you will (hopefully!) be able to see opportunities to show symbolism. for the basic plot, however... keep it relatively literal. relatively is, of course, vague. let me try again
... if you had you main character as a cat, with butterfly wings, named angel - that would be just fine. in fact, thats not a bad idea... if your comic is about a cat with butterfly wings named angel, of course.the average reader will, on the first pass, not think too heavily into the symbolism that you put in. so make sure the story will work without it.
now the harder part... the deeper reader, on the second pass, notice and ponder your deeper parts of the story. the symbolism can be taken as far as to have what is almost a separate, symbolic, story. this is pretty exciting when you read a comic once, dub it as ''pretty good'', then read it again at a deeper level and realize that it is VERY good.
to sum this up, write the story. just a story. then start adding in other parts that can be taken in as part of totally different story, AS WELL AS the original one.
sorry (or, depending, you''re welcome) for the long-winded reply
-geo-
http://www.geocities.com/elementum_game
quote: Original post by DuranStrife
As for moral insights, have you ever read Orson Scott Card?
Somehow, I get the feeling she has.
quote: Original post by DuranStrife
If you''re into science fiction...
I strongly suspect that she is.
It''s the sunandshadow! Hello there...
I would strongly prefer the literal style over the symbolic style. If you must merge both, I would leave the symbolic style to dream segments. However, I am not partial to dream segments myself.
A cat with butterfly wings. I am reminded of a Pegasus: a horse with eagle wings.
OT: Too bad you''ve been so scarce lately. I''d like to talk to you about horses.
quote: As for moral insights, have you ever read Orson Scott Card?
quote: Somehow, I get the feeling she has.
How''s that? Am I missing something here? I AM new to the Game Writing forum (And, I guess, to the rest of Gamedev, when compared to some of you.), so I might very well be missing out on some key information here.
Oh well.
Author
Hi bishop_pass! I really don''t know that much about horses, they were only ever a hobby interest of mine. Well, I know about drawing horse and carving carousel horses, but not that much about alive ones. I suspect I will be around more now because I''m finally getting over my burnout and getting into writing again.
DuranStrife - Yes you are missing some information. Don''t worry about it, I don''t expect GameDevers to keep track of my personal information, but I am a BIG science fiction fan. I''ve read _Ender''s Game_ and it''s 3 sequels, as well as a few other books by Card, and _Ender''s Game_ is on my list of favorite books that I posted to the lounge at some point. I go to sf cons, I''m trying to write an sf novel, my last game design was sf... when I went to writing camp I got nicknamed science fiction girl.
Thank you to everyone for your responses, they''ve helped me to get a better look at the big picture of symbolism in fiction. And I''m very impressed to be moderating a group that can produce a thread where every post is thoughtful and on-topic. I do want to say I wasn''t pre-judging my manuscript, I''m not prone to that particular writing problem. I was just deciding what style I wanted to tell my story in. I''ve been very impressed by surreal, dreamy novels like J. G. Ballard''s _Unlimited Dream Company_ and Paul Park''s _Sugar Rain_ trilogy and lots of things by Samuel R. Delany and many books set in virtual reality or other altered states of consciousness. On the other hand I also adore very literal books like _Ender''s Game_ and C. J. Cherryh''s _Cyteen_, etc. etc..
What I realized when I thought about what everyone said is that the way I think is more suited to writing realistic character interaction and plots, but I can make the story more resonant and meaningful by putting lots of symbolism in the character design and world building. I''m happy with that decision.
DuranStrife - Yes you are missing some information.
Don''t worry about it, I don''t expect GameDevers to keep track of my personal information, but I am a BIG science fiction fan. I''ve read _Ender''s Game_ and it''s 3 sequels, as well as a few other books by Card, and _Ender''s Game_ is on my list of favorite books that I posted to the lounge at some point. I go to sf cons, I''m trying to write an sf novel, my last game design was sf... when I went to writing camp I got nicknamed science fiction girl. Thank you to everyone for your responses, they''ve helped me to get a better look at the big picture of symbolism in fiction. And I''m very impressed to be moderating a group that can produce a thread where every post is thoughtful and on-topic.
I do want to say I wasn''t pre-judging my manuscript, I''m not prone to that particular writing problem. I was just deciding what style I wanted to tell my story in. I''ve been very impressed by surreal, dreamy novels like J. G. Ballard''s _Unlimited Dream Company_ and Paul Park''s _Sugar Rain_ trilogy and lots of things by Samuel R. Delany and many books set in virtual reality or other altered states of consciousness. On the other hand I also adore very literal books like _Ender''s Game_ and C. J. Cherryh''s _Cyteen_, etc. etc..What I realized when I thought about what everyone said is that the way I think is more suited to writing realistic character interaction and plots, but I can make the story more resonant and meaningful by putting lots of symbolism in the character design and world building. I''m happy with that decision.
quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Hi bishop_pass! I really don''t know that much about horses, they were only ever a hobby interest of mine. Well, I know about drawing horse and carving carousel horses, but not that much about alive ones. I suspect I will be around more now because I''m finally getting over my burnout and getting into writing again.
I''m glad to hear you''re going to be around more. I don''t want to steal your thread, but when you get a chance, I''d like to talk in a thread or on AIM or whatever about horses, their behavior, psychology, training, breeds, conformation, everything.
Regarding this thread, I don''t have a whole lot more to add, except you might find it interesting that I have about 1000 science fiction titles in my home. Lots of stuff by just about everyone, it seems.
bishop : she might be scarce, but her few appearances are always worth it
Anyway, I was reading a sourcebook for a game called Vampire : The Masquerade and my attention was broughtto a section on Storytelling. Now, it''s quite common in roleplaying games to have sections giving tips to storytellers on how to best do their jobs. But this section was very interesting, as it was dealing with symbolism. The idea basically, is to put little symbols here in their in the scenario to express some idea. One of the difficulty of storytelling is to put those "hints" without making them too "in your face". Because their would be a risk of yuor players thinking that you are trying to give them a game related hint, rather than a purely symbolic, for the atmosphere, one.
To give you an example, the sourcebook I was reading is on Ne York city, and the fall of power of one of the sects of Vampires called the Sabbat. Now the Sabbat are usually pictured as savages, with no morals or scrupules and one of their "signatures" is the use of fire.
So to show the dimishing power of the Sabbat in town, it was suggested to use fire.
At first, the Sabbat is still the master in town, all powerful. To represent this, the scenario could open on a building set ablaze by the Sabbat, some vampires desperately trying to escape (a bit like in Interview with a Vampire, if you recall).
Then, as the game progresses and the situation evolves, fire could be used at a smaller and smaller scale : a description of a street at night might include some bin fires here and there with some bums trying to get some heat of it. Or the fire in a fireplace at one of the main characters'' place could progressively (over the course of the scenario) be smaller, a raging fire at first, a few pieces of wood at the next visit, only a few dying embers the next time, as you prepare the final assault on the remanins of the Sabbat forces.
And when the Sabbat is finally beaten, a match thrown to the ground, a cigarette smeared in an ashtray, or a candle being blown out by the wind...
Similarly, in your case, you could simply put those symbols at key moments. For instance the first time your character is described, during a promenade in the park, some butterflies could be flying in the background. Or at night when your character is wandering the streets, some cat might be standing at a window, quietly observing your character.
There is plenty of ways to use symbolism and yet not being too literal about it, as I discovered. And I have to admit it is something I am dying to try out Of course, it might all pass over their heads, but hey, maybe *someone* will actually notice, and that would make it all worth it
Anyway, my two cents...
Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
Anyway, I was reading a sourcebook for a game called Vampire : The Masquerade and my attention was broughtto a section on Storytelling. Now, it''s quite common in roleplaying games to have sections giving tips to storytellers on how to best do their jobs. But this section was very interesting, as it was dealing with symbolism. The idea basically, is to put little symbols here in their in the scenario to express some idea. One of the difficulty of storytelling is to put those "hints" without making them too "in your face". Because their would be a risk of yuor players thinking that you are trying to give them a game related hint, rather than a purely symbolic, for the atmosphere, one.
To give you an example, the sourcebook I was reading is on Ne York city, and the fall of power of one of the sects of Vampires called the Sabbat. Now the Sabbat are usually pictured as savages, with no morals or scrupules and one of their "signatures" is the use of fire.
So to show the dimishing power of the Sabbat in town, it was suggested to use fire.
At first, the Sabbat is still the master in town, all powerful. To represent this, the scenario could open on a building set ablaze by the Sabbat, some vampires desperately trying to escape (a bit like in Interview with a Vampire, if you recall).
Then, as the game progresses and the situation evolves, fire could be used at a smaller and smaller scale : a description of a street at night might include some bin fires here and there with some bums trying to get some heat of it. Or the fire in a fireplace at one of the main characters'' place could progressively (over the course of the scenario) be smaller, a raging fire at first, a few pieces of wood at the next visit, only a few dying embers the next time, as you prepare the final assault on the remanins of the Sabbat forces.
And when the Sabbat is finally beaten, a match thrown to the ground, a cigarette smeared in an ashtray, or a candle being blown out by the wind...
Similarly, in your case, you could simply put those symbols at key moments. For instance the first time your character is described, during a promenade in the park, some butterflies could be flying in the background. Or at night when your character is wandering the streets, some cat might be standing at a window, quietly observing your character.
There is plenty of ways to use symbolism and yet not being too literal about it, as I discovered. And I have to admit it is something I am dying to try out
Of course, it might all pass over their heads, but hey, maybe *someone* will actually notice, and that would make it all worth it Anyway, my two cents...
Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
This topic is closed to new replies.
Advertisement
Popular Topics
Advertisement
