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2 story levels - mythic and personal
Author
Hey all, I came up with a new theory of writing today! (Go me! ^_^ lol) Anyway I was thinking about my favorite RPGs and also a few good books and animes. (Specifically: FF7, Parasite Eve, Vagrant Story, _The Unlimited Dream Company_, _GloomCookie_, Utena, and some more, but it doesn''t really matter if you''ve played/read any of these.) Anyway, I was trying to see what all my favorite stuff had in common, and I realized that it all had 2 levels - a mythic level which usually involved a creation story or revealing how the mythological/magical aspects of the world worked; and a personal level, which had strong characters in comic, romantic, and stressful situations.
So... can any of you think of guidelines/advice for creating a story that''s strong and cool on both of these levels? I think it can be done but is probably difficult, because mythic stories tend to reduce their characters to archetypes, and personal stories then to get so wrapped up in the details that the underpinnings of the world are drowned out, shoved out of the reader''s emotional focus. _GloomCookie_ and Utena solve this problem by double-characterizing: for example in Utena the character Anthy is a submissive girl who was pushed around by her older brother, but she is also the Princess, sister to the Prince, who was pierced with the Thousand Swords of Hate because she made him see that he couldn''t rescue every girl in the world. And in Gloomcookie Lexx is a goth girl in unrequited love, but she''s also a gargoyle princess who was robbed of her wings, with a star-crossed destined lover from a previous life.
Err, does this make any sense, or have I just had too much caffine today?
How you handle this is by world creation. You have to create a detailed world in which the characters live and make them a part of that world. Creating a history, culture and mythos for that world is half the job. The other half is ensure that people live and act according to that reality. This is a lot harder then people think and is done poorly if at all in most games. Once you have established the world you have you personal story which is the life a particular character and there journey through this world the character needs an initial personality and it’s not necessary to give them a back story. For instance in Utena the main character she only has one event in her entire past.
It’s a very tricky task to intertwine the reality you have created into the game world. It’s a lot more then just giving a history to people and places you have to involve them in that world. For instance if in your reality dragons are domesticated animals, raised for hatchling and used by the people through the land. Then your game world has to reflect this, the player should dragons ploughing fields, heating furnaces and carry cargo. Likewise the people should reflect this relationship, they could make things out of the dragons, and peasant might be dressed in dragon hides and discusses various dragon related issues such as breeding and diseases. The importance of something in the game reality should be reflected by the game world for instance if a wounded dragon requires special herbs to and training to heal and the player can acquire a battle dragon. Then it should be difficult to heal it once its get injured and not simple as walking into a stable and paying 100 gold to have it completely healed. Instead perhaps you could have the player visit a dragonist in individual trained to heal dragons. The dragonist may inform the player that he needs certain rare herbs to heal the dragon and the cost and time to acquire them if he can at all, or the player could provide them. Likewise social conditions need to play a role, if the player is in small rural town then its going be very unlikely that the local dragonist will have to supplies necessary to heal the players mortally injured and rare holy dragon. While if the player is in a capital city where dragons are everywhere and filled with the rich and powerful then the dragonist there may be able heal the hold dragon.
In order to create a powerful story like those you mentioned it’s important to show that the world impacts the characters, Also it has to impact the personal story of the characters.
Hopefully that will help you on your way.
-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I'm a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document
[edited by - TechnoGoth on August 25, 2003 1:12:38 AM]
It’s a very tricky task to intertwine the reality you have created into the game world. It’s a lot more then just giving a history to people and places you have to involve them in that world. For instance if in your reality dragons are domesticated animals, raised for hatchling and used by the people through the land. Then your game world has to reflect this, the player should dragons ploughing fields, heating furnaces and carry cargo. Likewise the people should reflect this relationship, they could make things out of the dragons, and peasant might be dressed in dragon hides and discusses various dragon related issues such as breeding and diseases. The importance of something in the game reality should be reflected by the game world for instance if a wounded dragon requires special herbs to and training to heal and the player can acquire a battle dragon. Then it should be difficult to heal it once its get injured and not simple as walking into a stable and paying 100 gold to have it completely healed. Instead perhaps you could have the player visit a dragonist in individual trained to heal dragons. The dragonist may inform the player that he needs certain rare herbs to heal the dragon and the cost and time to acquire them if he can at all, or the player could provide them. Likewise social conditions need to play a role, if the player is in small rural town then its going be very unlikely that the local dragonist will have to supplies necessary to heal the players mortally injured and rare holy dragon. While if the player is in a capital city where dragons are everywhere and filled with the rich and powerful then the dragonist there may be able heal the hold dragon.
In order to create a powerful story like those you mentioned it’s important to show that the world impacts the characters, Also it has to impact the personal story of the characters.
Hopefully that will help you on your way.
-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I'm a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document
[edited by - TechnoGoth on August 25, 2003 1:12:38 AM]
quote: Original post by sunandshadow
So... can any of you think of guidelines/advice for creating a story that's strong and cool on both of these levels?
I do something like this in screenwriting, and I make a diagrammatic of the plot arc and the character arc underneath it. You have then essentially eight possible POV's to work with depending on whether the section you are writing is plot extrinsic or intrinsic, or character extrinsic or intrinsic.
quote:
I think it can be done but is probably difficult, because mythic stories tend to reduce their characters to archetypes, and personal stories then to get so wrapped up in the details that the underpinnings of the world are drowned out, shoved out of the reader's emotional focus.
It's not as hard as you think because the reason for all the archtypality in the plot or story or game world is for in the first place is eventually it synthesizes into proteanistic drama (the story that is bourne of the chaacter's or plots efforts to go beyond or fail going beyond the bounds of the character's known limits [to the character] or the world; or more precisely, the story or character than is uniquely and individually itself once it gets past the challenges and complication of archetype). My friends at the Joseph Campbell library hiss like challenged snakes when I speak of this.
Just play around with the extrinsic and instrinsic values of character subjective to plot, and vice versa, and the other six permutations, and you'll get a handle on (dare I say?) archtypical transformative stories that merge character and world.
You've also, btw, stumble upon on of the great discoveries of transformative storytelling, one of the greatest discoveries I've seen in the field in my coupla decades.
HTH,
Adventuredesign
[edited by - adventuredesign on August 25, 2003 6:18:39 AM]
in my oppinion there are two things to take care of:
1 - avoid the clichee. on both levels.
here are the most typical mythic story-archetypes:
(1) hero starts as a whimp laughed at and trains hard to overcome his personal antagonist ( boy at the same age, superior to the hero in the beginning)
(2) hero gets chosen by destiny/god(s) to defeat evil.
(3) hero has sealed powers he needs to set free.
these three can of course be mixed to any degree which leads to concepts like in X/Escaflowne(the movie) where the hero with special powers will either be good (salvation) or evil (armageddon) and has to make his choice.
there are two ways to solve this problem:
(1) hide the goals or use them in a different way: the introduction of a primary target like shinra or sydney who seem to be the bad guys early on but take a different place in the story later on. a good thing about this idea is that it delivers a good way to start the story (cloud joining avalanche as a mercenary to destroy mako reactors). but there are some risks which will chalange your skills as a writer: if the hideance is to simple it wont be intersting.
ff7 really shows a masterpiece in solving this porblem; the simple 'destroy-reactors to save nature' sheme develops into the mythic mako/lifestream theory (this theory is in fact a theme inherit in most ff titles since ff7(even in the movie). it was 'invented' by one of the designers who lost his wife during an accident and thus searched an satisfying answer to death.)
this mako theory is of course linked again with other mythical aspects of the game: {centra(?dunno the english name), weapons, meteor}. this makes the story of ff7 so enjoyable.
(2) invent something different. seems hard to do - i dont have any ideas
. an example for this could be evangelion which i dont think takes much use of these archetypes. there are other themes which are more important: his relation to his father, his search for the meaning of life, ...
[edit] i'll write something about characters and the linkage between two levels this evening/night (european time)
[edited by - Pext on August 25, 2003 9:57:46 AM]
1 - avoid the clichee. on both levels.
here are the most typical mythic story-archetypes:
(1) hero starts as a whimp laughed at and trains hard to overcome his personal antagonist ( boy at the same age, superior to the hero in the beginning)
(2) hero gets chosen by destiny/god(s) to defeat evil.
(3) hero has sealed powers he needs to set free.
these three can of course be mixed to any degree which leads to concepts like in X/Escaflowne(the movie) where the hero with special powers will either be good (salvation) or evil (armageddon) and has to make his choice.
there are two ways to solve this problem:
(1) hide the goals or use them in a different way: the introduction of a primary target like shinra or sydney who seem to be the bad guys early on but take a different place in the story later on. a good thing about this idea is that it delivers a good way to start the story (cloud joining avalanche as a mercenary to destroy mako reactors). but there are some risks which will chalange your skills as a writer: if the hideance is to simple it wont be intersting.
ff7 really shows a masterpiece in solving this porblem; the simple 'destroy-reactors to save nature' sheme develops into the mythic mako/lifestream theory (this theory is in fact a theme inherit in most ff titles since ff7(even in the movie). it was 'invented' by one of the designers who lost his wife during an accident and thus searched an satisfying answer to death.)
this mako theory is of course linked again with other mythical aspects of the game: {centra(?dunno the english name), weapons, meteor}. this makes the story of ff7 so enjoyable.
(2) invent something different. seems hard to do - i dont have any ideas
. an example for this could be evangelion which i dont think takes much use of these archetypes. there are other themes which are more important: his relation to his father, his search for the meaning of life, ...[edit] i'll write something about characters and the linkage between two levels this evening/night (european time)
[edited by - Pext on August 25, 2003 9:57:46 AM]
I have been writing a story that uses a hero that comes into the magical realm through archeology. The clues of buried records of civilizations that have come and gone. In this quest, the hero struggles with the emotional obatacles in the struggle for survival. I have also elimenated stars in the night sky. Only out of curiosity on how a civilization might evolve without stars other than it''s own.
Maybe defining thourghly the characters makeup before entering an overwhelming world of magic might be a possibility. Getting to know the character to the point where their reactions can be predicted under certain circumstances. Emotional reactions to a gradual increase in magical fantasy world might help as well. So this is done through discovery and is not innate to the characters.
Maybe defining thourghly the characters makeup before entering an overwhelming world of magic might be a possibility. Getting to know the character to the point where their reactions can be predicted under certain circumstances. Emotional reactions to a gradual increase in magical fantasy world might help as well. So this is done through discovery and is not innate to the characters.
i don''t think it''s so hard, archetype and clichee are good tool in good hand, you have to know their purpose to go beyond.
there is two general theorie of scenarisation:
aristotelician and non-aristotelician
aristo give importance of drama and conflict, character are nothing but chess pieace of the story and it rely on stong mechanism. its the hollywood taste, the engineer face.but it can turn superficial because character becames mere code that provide information for the story and lacks depth. aristo tend to use clichee because they are easily readable then u can make them fit to the whole engine (the story)
non aristo give importance to character, strong characterisation leads to depth and strong meaning, event are decided by character''s action and inner conflict, the story can be anything the character can do with is personnality , it''s the french touch, but story lacks construction and rely more on ambiance and mood, it''s the state of art and expression.
among these, there is the thema which is the bone of the story (what''s the story about)
i think the great of jap (anime and movies) is a well balance of those two with great consideration of those two technique (american wants efficienty through aristo and french spit on the aristo for non-aristo)
look at miyazaki''s anime, totoro and princess mononoke
totoro is non aristo (there is no conflict no drama and it''s still great) and mononoke is greatly aristo (pure archetype with epic setting)
there is many example but i thinks it''s because jap rely more on thema than technique
they can speak of anything with any setting, and the setting (the genre) itself is not that important, you have ofthen cross element from several setting (cow bebop the best, setting of manga, 50/60/70''s polar, chambara, western, sci fi and many other''s!!!)
they can speak seriously of family with giant robot in background or music with fantasy epic story!!
the use to cross genre beyond mere addition, escaflown for ex took the mecha setting but translate it and built it in the fantasy setting, not just adding technology but think of how the concept can turn in another setting , with the inner setting rule
well it''s all the secret of jap deep+technique serving a thema beyond genre consideration
character can be clichee but they are analyze from the heart and action have meaning from them
neon genesis evangelion is the best example, all character are cliche , the start setting is a stereotype but the anime is everything but a common products
think of matrix too, the more intensive past an d copy i ever seen, it''s truly amazing!! i know all the reference, cut to cut, plan to plan, word by word but it''s still original!!
there is two general theorie of scenarisation:
aristotelician and non-aristotelician
aristo give importance of drama and conflict, character are nothing but chess pieace of the story and it rely on stong mechanism. its the hollywood taste, the engineer face.but it can turn superficial because character becames mere code that provide information for the story and lacks depth. aristo tend to use clichee because they are easily readable then u can make them fit to the whole engine (the story)
non aristo give importance to character, strong characterisation leads to depth and strong meaning, event are decided by character''s action and inner conflict, the story can be anything the character can do with is personnality , it''s the french touch, but story lacks construction and rely more on ambiance and mood, it''s the state of art and expression.
among these, there is the thema which is the bone of the story (what''s the story about)
i think the great of jap (anime and movies) is a well balance of those two with great consideration of those two technique (american wants efficienty through aristo and french spit on the aristo for non-aristo)
look at miyazaki''s anime, totoro and princess mononoke
totoro is non aristo (there is no conflict no drama and it''s still great) and mononoke is greatly aristo (pure archetype with epic setting)
there is many example but i thinks it''s because jap rely more on thema than technique
they can speak of anything with any setting, and the setting (the genre) itself is not that important, you have ofthen cross element from several setting (cow bebop the best, setting of manga, 50/60/70''s polar, chambara, western, sci fi and many other''s!!!)
they can speak seriously of family with giant robot in background or music with fantasy epic story!!
the use to cross genre beyond mere addition, escaflown for ex took the mecha setting but translate it and built it in the fantasy setting, not just adding technology but think of how the concept can turn in another setting , with the inner setting rule
well it''s all the secret of jap deep+technique serving a thema beyond genre consideration
character can be clichee but they are analyze from the heart and action have meaning from them
neon genesis evangelion is the best example, all character are cliche , the start setting is a stereotype but the anime is everything but a common products
think of matrix too, the more intensive past an d copy i ever seen, it''s truly amazing!! i know all the reference, cut to cut, plan to plan, word by word but it''s still original!!
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