well the whole idea steal from majora is that you are not the only character of the game BUT just one character of many
what's make character a main character in a story??
a main character is the guy which the story is about, if you pick another one it will become the main, that's all
since the player is just one character, the story can goe dinamicly from action of each other
a kind like of multiplayer with a single player, other player are story bots! voila

the difference is the aproach of the problem, but everything has already been done technically

now it's about finding how to tell the story, the narrative, here again even fighting game has alredy way to present new character in the action, and many game have study how to put an ambiant (think tetris switch the song when you get too high, or mario the music start to accelerate when time is not enough, that was the first "interactive" music)
[edit]
if you see some game like chess or go there is opening, main party and ending move
sounds like the three part of a story??
[/edit]
but i think there is still things to do in dinamic narrative

for issue about dialogue, there is a large amount of texte game which has develop technique about it and some academic study with statistic analysis of texte style which can help generate texte, and how about chatter bot?? seek these you will find some solution (search "if" interactive fiction)

see here (interective fiction http://www.skotos.net/
here too: http://www.interactivecinema.org/

voila

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[edited by - Neoshaman on September 21, 2003 7:58:46 PM]

Neoshaman said:

"[...]
that''s why i say it''s a kind of story which play against the player
we can imagine the fate manager calculating depth of decision in order to choose the appropriate hand on the story game field according to his play style

the story play style is the main experiance the designer want to build for the player"

Interesting... a system which knows the "story" that the creator wants to tell, and moves its "pieces", (the entities in the game) in order to inact that story. Not what I was particularly going for, but a cool idea!

-----

Rayno said:

"I don''t see a system like this being advanced enough to write dialog for a central character though. Not anytime soon anyway."

I believe the same system could work, there would just have to be a TON of dialogue that the writer would have to write beforehand. If the player can speak and not just spew text, that necessitates speach synthesis (with proper inflections etc.). This tech doesn''t exist today but I do not believe that for a second it couldn''t (or that there aren''t a dozen companies trying this now). Or you could just have the player''s chief companions be mute... or maybe they don''t speak the same language. There are ways around this barrier that don''t _have_ to feel like workarounds if we write/design well enough.

Rayno said:

"However for important characters there should be deliberate, and specific thought put into what they do throughout the days."

I agree. I simply believe that this thought could be expressed algorithmic form. Not only should their daytime regime or habits be modeled like this around the player, or their emotions, but their decisions in the story.

I''m not simply applying the cellular autonoma theory (or dynamic in game AI of any type) to everyday NPC behaviour, but think of the different factions involved in a story based game from the standpoint of a strategy game. They all have goals, and they act and plan to achieve these. What if Sephiroth in FF 7 acted dynamically in his trek across the world? Whats more, a savvy player could perhaps predict where he might show up next (to join or stop him).

-----

I also believe that the issue isn''t one/multiple/dynamic storyline conclusions, or a contiuing, everlasting universe. Its about new ways to tell a story, or to express an idea.

I think it would be intersting (from an artistic standpoint) in Majora''s Mask if the moon was falling and that was it... in 20 hours gameplay time, the world will end in firey oblivion. The theme would be mortality, and the question the work would bounce around is that of "What does the player/NPC/world do when his/her/its life is going to end?". I for one think that this would be a powerful experience.

Perhaps too powerful for the "mainstream". Think about an intense movie you''ve seen, for example Saving Private Ryan. Games are far more intense than books and movies. For all intents and purposes, in a game of the nature we seem to be discussing, when immersed in the world the player is living there. I''m sure one day a game will go very far, and it will cause emotional disruption in all that play it. It will be interesting to see if this sort of game is relevated to the same level of success that most truly meaningful films are today (read: shoved in most people''s minds to mostly being in a little yearly film festival).

-Steven Rokiski

quote: Its about new ways to tell a story, or to express an idea.
...
Think about an intense movie you''ve seen, for example Saving Private Ryan. Games are far more intense than books and movies. For all intents and purposes, in a game of the nature we seem to be discussing, when immersed in the world the player is living there. I''m sure one day a game will go very far, and it will cause emotional disruption in all that play it. It will be interesting to see if this sort of game is relevated to the same level of success that most truly meaningful films are today (read: shoved in most people''s minds to mostly being in a little yearly film festival).
...
The theme would be mortality, and the question the work would bounce around is that of "What does the player/NPC/world do when his/her/its life is going to end?". I for one think that this would be a powerful experience

it''s actually what''s i''m aiming for
some game has already acheive this but with linear driven story
Majora was the first which give a real feel (for me as weel) of implication towards the world because people seems to life and was affect emotionly by events
the world goes only for 3 hours but you have to experiment many possibility of the same story from many point of view
the story of the lover is a good one
at first you have only a mystery the boyfriends have disapear and you see how this affect his girl friend
and when you finish the quest(many try after can''t be done at once whithout seeing other possibility), they meet at 5 mn at theend of the world, everybody as already left the town and the wait for death together and you, you have to go to left, i have miss 4mn of hesitation (it was unexpected, i was surprise that this going so dark), and it was just a game...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

well what about information sharing about each NPC it''s important too! what information and what it affect balance, it''s something i forget to talk, NPC must talk with each other not only player
well talk is used at a more large definition, i mean sharing all kind of information and object to acheive their goal (diplomacy?)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

well i'm working actually on this kind of game
now i'm just design how npc should react emotionlly
and still have to work about decision made and information gatherings
i use a kind of representation that avoid pathfinding (click and point game interface, the game is divide in graphic scene which represente a place which are link together)
well i have start to get info from diplomacy and strategy game for npc, but i didn't do my FATE sys exactly (having a drama manager which use npc as piece on chess story board)

and i avoid dialogue (speak to npc is like actual "information trigger" npc, whith the fact that talking is an action which affect the npc and is take account and differ from what the npc want/role/emotion/activity)

did someone have more information about how diplmatic and stretegic ai work??

and well the game has not full with autonome agent, only key element are, the others have level of detail npc, from classic wanderer to give info to the player, to main characters (and they are LOD when out of screen too)

EDIT: try to make a the-sim like to test but not with the level of detail of sims (it can be fun)
use a simple decision tree (motivation and intelligence in how you will design each), weighted with emotion, and trigger behaviour in fonction of emotion/mood and need/desire/motivation
(with emotion a stimuli to event) and to use fate, trigger behaviour according to drama manager (just like a rts manage is unit )
they may be many more force in balance than two (each can be considered as team in a rts) not need huge scalling of unit, a team can be simply one unit (individualist) or a many unit in different cooperative configuration (selfish: use lower unit to acheive his goal, cooperative: each unit take care of the need of other, etc...) it coul be fun!!! a RTS (real time story )
mmmm... i will see if i can work with this level of simplicity

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[edited by - Neoshaman on September 23, 2003 6:44:08 AM]

quote: Original post by Rayno
By a diplomatic AI, you mean an NPCs that communicate with eachother? Perhaps you could attach certain data to a piece of information. Like how obscene, how personal, or how scary that information is. And then create NPCs with certain personality traits. You would then have to devise an algorithim for deciding how likely they are to share information with another NPC. So a outgoing confident character, would have a greater chance of sharing intimate details or secrets.

well i was thinking more about balance of force, give/retrive/share information to fulfill goal like in a rts or a diplomacy, it's about trust, alliance etc...
even in simple story we can analyze element from this point of view, some goal has to deal with the ennemy/obstacle (ennemy is define as the opponent of goal, beloved parent can be tag ennemy from some aspect in a love story for example)

but i have never think of what you have say, it's cool

quote: Original post by Ketchaval
One cool thing that can be done with linear / multi-linear games is to have the in-game characters observe what the player does, and make it into "a story", ie. they judge him. It is a cool effect when the player realises that some of the things they have done (which seemed unimportant at the time) have been noted by the game. (And the more important things too).

it's a good alternative to fully dinamic i've play chronotrigger too

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[edited by - Neoshaman on September 27, 2003 7:08:33 PM]