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Something About Writing
Author
Few years ago I used to post here but then I got myself out of game world and got into music, novell writing and etc. stuff. In this first post I''ll try out if my account has been deleted or something...
Author
Ok, now I am going to give you some advice. Most of you will probably agree with me in that Final Fantasy series are a good example of excellent writing. How they do it seems to be completely out of hands of other developers. That''s probably because the people who are writing don''t know anything about writing and power of written word.
The secret of terrific plot is not in creativity, not in unexpected turns of the plot etc. People need some thing to grab on. Symbols, values of life, something to connect themselves to the characters of the game. How well you can connect with something like Max Payne (Sorry I haven''t been playing computer games for ages
)? Do you find something in them that you can find from yourselves?
The thing with Max Payne is that, yeah it has a written plot and all, but it contains no message, nothing that would occupy your mind after closing computer. It lacks of symbols and fails to be nothing more than a cliche of a sad mans story.
What about GTA 3, there is this criminal who tries to get reputation in the streets of a big city. Now, the freedom of this game would have allowed a developement of a great plot, but the games contents holds around being a little criminal. Oh how original! If I had done it I''d have added some back grounds, more characters that are more important to the main character than the dudes who gives him jobs.
My version of GTA:
At the beginning the dude tells how he didn''t choose to become a little thief. His parrents were small drug dealers, always messed up and violent. The father had used his boy in his criminal operations ever since he was a little kid, that''s how he learned to steal cars etc. Anyway, he didn''t like it so he took her little sister wiht him to a new city. He tried to give her a better life but for uneducated finding a job was too overwhelming and because of his weak nature he felt back to the path of crime. All this could have been told by little scenes and dialogs during the early game.
As the game goes on he gets a lot of enemies. It would make a one brilliant scene when his little sister would have to save his ass when some thugs comes to get him. Having a gun pointed on his head, he hears shots but instead of getting killed his sister shot the thugs. This would be a terrible failure for the dude since he tried to give his sister a better life but now she has lost her innocense by commiting two murders.
His sister has to save his ass more and more often while it gets more and more dangerous. Soon he thinks that they have to change city once again but for that they''ll need more money. He plans to steal drugs from one local drug lord, this is the final task. After he thinks he managed to get the drugs and avoided getting caught he couldn''t be more wrong. The next morning when he awakes and gets out of the house and towards the car he is suprised by the drug lord and his crew. Her sister has been growing flowers on the wasted back alley they are living in. As usually she gets up and gets some flowers to sell on the streets to cover some expenses of their living but this morning when she opens the door, the drug lord and his crew starts shooting as they can''t see who is coming and thought it was an ambush. As his sister gets shot and the flowers on her hands are falling from the skies it is time to give the player the ending cinematics.
During the whole game this dude who is our main character has had flashbacks after each big mission to make the ending cinematics. In flash backs he is walking down the streets and watching kids play and all that stuff how he missed his childhood etc. In the ending it all comes down to you and it turns out that during the whole game he was walking to the graveyard where his sister is located. The game finishes up with the words "Rest in piece sweet sister".
Think about that, it took me 2 hours to come up with all that, but if GTA3 would have had a story like that it would have been greatest game of the year... Games lack of good stories and with one you can add great deal of addictivity to your game. Its not only the contents, the environment, what the character does and all that. There has to be something more and something to make people curious and something to make people talk about the game.
The secret of terrific plot is not in creativity, not in unexpected turns of the plot etc. People need some thing to grab on. Symbols, values of life, something to connect themselves to the characters of the game. How well you can connect with something like Max Payne (Sorry I haven''t been playing computer games for ages
)? Do you find something in them that you can find from yourselves?The thing with Max Payne is that, yeah it has a written plot and all, but it contains no message, nothing that would occupy your mind after closing computer. It lacks of symbols and fails to be nothing more than a cliche of a sad mans story.
What about GTA 3, there is this criminal who tries to get reputation in the streets of a big city. Now, the freedom of this game would have allowed a developement of a great plot, but the games contents holds around being a little criminal. Oh how original! If I had done it I''d have added some back grounds, more characters that are more important to the main character than the dudes who gives him jobs.
My version of GTA:
At the beginning the dude tells how he didn''t choose to become a little thief. His parrents were small drug dealers, always messed up and violent. The father had used his boy in his criminal operations ever since he was a little kid, that''s how he learned to steal cars etc. Anyway, he didn''t like it so he took her little sister wiht him to a new city. He tried to give her a better life but for uneducated finding a job was too overwhelming and because of his weak nature he felt back to the path of crime. All this could have been told by little scenes and dialogs during the early game.
As the game goes on he gets a lot of enemies. It would make a one brilliant scene when his little sister would have to save his ass when some thugs comes to get him. Having a gun pointed on his head, he hears shots but instead of getting killed his sister shot the thugs. This would be a terrible failure for the dude since he tried to give his sister a better life but now she has lost her innocense by commiting two murders.
His sister has to save his ass more and more often while it gets more and more dangerous. Soon he thinks that they have to change city once again but for that they''ll need more money. He plans to steal drugs from one local drug lord, this is the final task. After he thinks he managed to get the drugs and avoided getting caught he couldn''t be more wrong. The next morning when he awakes and gets out of the house and towards the car he is suprised by the drug lord and his crew. Her sister has been growing flowers on the wasted back alley they are living in. As usually she gets up and gets some flowers to sell on the streets to cover some expenses of their living but this morning when she opens the door, the drug lord and his crew starts shooting as they can''t see who is coming and thought it was an ambush. As his sister gets shot and the flowers on her hands are falling from the skies it is time to give the player the ending cinematics.
During the whole game this dude who is our main character has had flashbacks after each big mission to make the ending cinematics. In flash backs he is walking down the streets and watching kids play and all that stuff how he missed his childhood etc. In the ending it all comes down to you and it turns out that during the whole game he was walking to the graveyard where his sister is located. The game finishes up with the words "Rest in piece sweet sister".
Think about that, it took me 2 hours to come up with all that, but if GTA3 would have had a story like that it would have been greatest game of the year... Games lack of good stories and with one you can add great deal of addictivity to your game. Its not only the contents, the environment, what the character does and all that. There has to be something more and something to make people curious and something to make people talk about the game.
Holy cow! All I have to say is that if GTA3 had been anything like that, then I would have been utterly disappointed. Having values, morals, symbols, etc., in some things is good, is even great. But they don''t belong everywhere. I''m reminded of how religious stuff (contemporary Christianity comes to mind) tries to turn everything into a moral lesson or something. It just doesn''t work. Why do people try to put those ideas into every single popular thing that they see? Urg...
Ugh. The point of GTA3 wasn''t and shouldn''t have been the story. The value of that game was rooted in gameplay. Like a tournament fighter, the story is a simple ruse to justify the gameplay.
The problem with Final Fantasy-style narratives (at least the more recent ones) is that the game is enslaved by the story. When your gameplay consists of combat, cut scenes and the occasional scavenger hunt, then a good lead-you-by-the-nose story is the best way to make the game viable. A story like the one you describe would eliminate the sense of freedom and the moral vaccuum which are the two defining and distinguishing characteristics of GTA.
A good story can be a boon, but it''s like putting a turbocharger on a piece of fine artwork: Not every beneficial accessory can augment every good thing.
The problem with Final Fantasy-style narratives (at least the more recent ones) is that the game is enslaved by the story. When your gameplay consists of combat, cut scenes and the occasional scavenger hunt, then a good lead-you-by-the-nose story is the best way to make the game viable. A story like the one you describe would eliminate the sense of freedom and the moral vaccuum which are the two defining and distinguishing characteristics of GTA.
A good story can be a boon, but it''s like putting a turbocharger on a piece of fine artwork: Not every beneficial accessory can augment every good thing.
Stories need symbolism like a penguin needs roofing nails. Unfortunately many people do not believe this is true. These are the people that load up a narrative with symbols and meaning and completely ignore the CRAFT of telling a damn story. There are certain skills and tecniques involved, which some people never have, others learn, and some just have naturally. For example, we all know people who can tell you a joke you have already heard and it will still be funny the second time. And then there are others who can''t tell it right the first time.
Symbolism and meaning are byproducts of a good story. People interpret these things differently, and there are grand and complicated theories which always inadequately describe them. I am sure that I have mentioned this once before, but all the stories have been told. We can only retell them. That means that skill in storytelling is important.
Game developers often ignore the story line because such-and-such game is about "gameplay" not a story. But all games have a kind of narrative in them. What Iron Chef Carnage calls the excuse to play. The more compelling and developed that exscuse the more rewarding a game will be.
BelGarath ( if you were going to pick an Eddings Character, you should have gone with the protagonist from "Losers" his best novel)your alternate plot for GTA 3 left everyone cold because you didn''t bother to present it well. The theme is as old as the hills. We all know that riff, so to speak. To sell it you have got to put a little effort into Telling The Story, it wont tell itself. Game designers everywhere need to take this hint.
Symbolism and meaning are byproducts of a good story. People interpret these things differently, and there are grand and complicated theories which always inadequately describe them. I am sure that I have mentioned this once before, but all the stories have been told. We can only retell them. That means that skill in storytelling is important.
Game developers often ignore the story line because such-and-such game is about "gameplay" not a story. But all games have a kind of narrative in them. What Iron Chef Carnage calls the excuse to play. The more compelling and developed that exscuse the more rewarding a game will be.
BelGarath ( if you were going to pick an Eddings Character, you should have gone with the protagonist from "Losers" his best novel)your alternate plot for GTA 3 left everyone cold because you didn''t bother to present it well. The theme is as old as the hills. We all know that riff, so to speak. To sell it you have got to put a little effort into Telling The Story, it wont tell itself. Game designers everywhere need to take this hint.
Author
Maybe I learned something today, people don''t even want those stories in the games in the first place. The example of GTA was maybe a bad one, but as I see it is that games should have more than nice way of burning your time to offer. Most of games offer nothing more and that is why games are considered as garbage culture. Actually the definition of garbage culture is easy, it lacks the ability to touch you. GTA is a perfect example, you can turn on your computer and play awhile and when you close it you can immediately start working on something else. With culturally quality product you can''t do this. It will kind of reach you after you''ve done playing/watching/reading/listening to it. I don''t know about you but for me this should be the goal of the whole creation process. You tell the story and the audience is listening. People shouldn''t leave cinema with empty heads, good movie occupies their minds with something. There has never been a game like American History X, you know. Maybe I have grown out of the gamers world, I''ve written a musical, few novells, I am gigging wiht my bands but what makes me do it is the pleasure you can get when you can see how people react to your stuff, if they can feel that something behind the words.
The example story was just improvisation and therefore it isn''t miracle that it is pretty much cliche. The thing is that there would be good basis for great story and great game that might give something for players for the burned time. I don''t know if you can understand but it troubles me when people are just playing games to wait better tomorrow. Being an addictive time consumer, the game doesn''t offer anything for the player. I mean you can learn something about yourself and surrounding world by reading a good book like Catcher In The Rye but games have never achieved that. I oppose everything people do to just burn some time, soap drama, garbage TV shows, garbage movies and all that stuff. Those are hooking people to do something unimportant and therefore they are slowing down the personal progress of a person.
The example story was just improvisation and therefore it isn''t miracle that it is pretty much cliche. The thing is that there would be good basis for great story and great game that might give something for players for the burned time. I don''t know if you can understand but it troubles me when people are just playing games to wait better tomorrow. Being an addictive time consumer, the game doesn''t offer anything for the player. I mean you can learn something about yourself and surrounding world by reading a good book like Catcher In The Rye but games have never achieved that. I oppose everything people do to just burn some time, soap drama, garbage TV shows, garbage movies and all that stuff. Those are hooking people to do something unimportant and therefore they are slowing down the personal progress of a person.
I agree with you on some levels, but on others I don''t.
I dont think GTA3 needed a different story. Throwing in morals and symbolism would take away from the gameplay. For one if you tried to throw in a strict story like this, the most of the missions would have to be really centered on that. You would probably have less missions and less freedom. It would be like if at the end of "the good, the bad, and the ugly" clint eastwood sais "sure, i got the money, but was it really worth all the people that got hurt." That would be horrible, I would have pulled out my revovler and blasted the movie to peices. Some games are just meant to let us expirience what we cant really in real life.
On the other hand, many games that go for a more meaningfull story (which is perfectly good approach) fail miserably because I cant empathise with the people at all. This is very true in pretty much every RPG I have ever played. I can''t really relate with any of the charecter and they all feel empty and shallow. In FF7 vincent had some story about his wife or somthing that was supposed to be emotional (there were alot of other parts that tried to be all deep and meaningful too). The whole time I was thinking "Man do I not give a shit". This is an RPG, and is supposedly one of the best, the story is sopposed to be great otherwise there is no reason to play an RPG. What the script writers and such have to be able to do is make me feel that I am the charecter, That all the other charecters are real, and that my relationships with them are real. Otherwise there will be nothing to hold my interest.
An example of a game like this is Mafia. It has by far the best story I have seen in any game. Everything about the story felt soo real and every charecter seemed like a real person. The game is alot like GTA in the fact that it is a driving/shooting split. But the gameplay and story feel way different. I recomend it to anybody looking to play a new game.
I dont think GTA3 needed a different story. Throwing in morals and symbolism would take away from the gameplay. For one if you tried to throw in a strict story like this, the most of the missions would have to be really centered on that. You would probably have less missions and less freedom. It would be like if at the end of "the good, the bad, and the ugly" clint eastwood sais "sure, i got the money, but was it really worth all the people that got hurt." That would be horrible, I would have pulled out my revovler and blasted the movie to peices. Some games are just meant to let us expirience what we cant really in real life.
On the other hand, many games that go for a more meaningfull story (which is perfectly good approach) fail miserably because I cant empathise with the people at all. This is very true in pretty much every RPG I have ever played. I can''t really relate with any of the charecter and they all feel empty and shallow. In FF7 vincent had some story about his wife or somthing that was supposed to be emotional (there were alot of other parts that tried to be all deep and meaningful too). The whole time I was thinking "Man do I not give a shit". This is an RPG, and is supposedly one of the best, the story is sopposed to be great otherwise there is no reason to play an RPG. What the script writers and such have to be able to do is make me feel that I am the charecter, That all the other charecters are real, and that my relationships with them are real. Otherwise there will be nothing to hold my interest.
An example of a game like this is Mafia. It has by far the best story I have seen in any game. Everything about the story felt soo real and every charecter seemed like a real person. The game is alot like GTA in the fact that it is a driving/shooting split. But the gameplay and story feel way different. I recomend it to anybody looking to play a new game.
I guess I''m the dissenter here. I think most Final Fantasy games are devoid of any real storywriting. They''ve had the same basic outline so many times now that I wonder if they haven''t just cooked up some sort of ''random story generator''.
Blonde hero with no memory and a big sword saves the world, gets the girl, and BLAH. Sure, they can use classic psychological imagery that you''ll learn in college, but there''s not much beyond that.
Take your example of Max Payne. The games had beautiful writing. Yes, the dialogue wasn''t deep, the story wasn''t far-reaching, and the only person you really saved was yourself, not the entire human race. But the game was MEANT to be like that and it succeeded wonderfully. The storytelling was unique, the writing with that detective-noir style that became classic instantly.
- It''s a life''s work
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Blonde hero with no memory and a big sword saves the world, gets the girl, and BLAH. Sure, they can use classic psychological imagery that you''ll learn in college, but there''s not much beyond that.
Take your example of Max Payne. The games had beautiful writing. Yes, the dialogue wasn''t deep, the story wasn''t far-reaching, and the only person you really saved was yourself, not the entire human race. But the game was MEANT to be like that and it succeeded wonderfully. The storytelling was unique, the writing with that detective-noir style that became classic instantly.
- It''s a life''s work
40% Off ALL Hosting Plans
-ryan@lecherousjester.com
I disagree with the statements on FF and GTA; I''ve never played Max Payne though.
Final Fantasy rocked. Yeah, ''ed.'' Many would argue just when it started going down the crapper, though personally I''d say their PSX era is roughly when things started going wrong. And that''s just because I loved FF3/6j and am reluctant to say the story wasn''t all that hot.
Let''s compare the storylines, excluding the NES FFs which were actually original in their plot (at the time).
FF4: Dark knight becomes good and finds a purpose. Country tries to take over the world. The Evil Power (tm) is behind it. Good guy gets girl, old fuzzy sage dude dies, last boss is killed in the end and there''s a wedding.
FF5: Adventurer finds a purpose. Evil Power (tm) tries to take over the world. Good guy DOESN''T get girl, though fuzzy old dude dies anyways. Last boss is killed in the end and there''s a party.
FF6: Evil Empire''s puppet finds a reason to live. Evil Empire tries to take over the world. The Evil Power (tm), Kefka, is maniplating the strings. One of the good guys gets the girl (Locke/Celes), fuzzy knight dude dies, last boss is killed in the end, and there''s no party as such.
FF7: Ex-puppet of the Evil Empire finds a purpose. Evil Empire tries to take over the world. Some other Evil Power (tm) is behind everything else, though. Good guy gets girl (sorta), but other girl dies anyways. Last boss is killed in the end and there''s no party.
FF8: Angsty kid finds a reason to open up to others. Evil Witch tries to take over the world. Well, compress time. Whatever. Other Evil Witch is behind it all. Good guy gets the girl. No-one dies this time around (maybe Square was worried we''d see a trend?). Last boss is defeated, and there''s a big celebration.
FF9: Puppet from an other world finds a purpose and becomes sentient. Evil Empire tries to take over the world. Evil Power (tm) is behind everything. Good guy gets the girl, although ex-bad-guy-not-really-bad-just-manipulated dies. Last boss is killed in the end and there''s a wedding (or so I''ve heard; I stopped at the last boss because it just got too stupid then. WTF was the foreshadowing for Necron? AT ALL? >"<;
I can easily rig up a program to randomly turn on and off flags and spout these stories out.
- Character is a [Puppet]/[Bad Person]/[Gothic Introvert]/[Adventurer].
- [Evil Power]/[Evil Empire]/[Evil Person] tries to take over the world.
- Evil Power is behind everything.
- [True/False]: Good guy gets girl.
- [True/False]: Someone dies.
- There''s [a wedding]/[a party]/[nothing special] at the end.
---
As for GTA, this game is a very, very bad example for one reason in particular: out of every game produced, I can''t think of many who would actually work without a real story. GTA, however, works just for that reason: it has no story. For the most part, what''s really fun about it is just randomly driving around and comitting crimes or doing l33t stunts in your stolen jaguar.
It''s fun because you don''t have to worry about your character''s social standing, wether you care or not: you''re there to take names and kick asses. The game is free, unrestrictive, and allows you to get yourself into a number of situations you just wouldn''t be able to with, say, an FPS or an RPG. But I disgress; this has little to do with the story. Or lack thereof.
What made GTA was the experience, not the game itself. Although I think I''m going a bit overboard by saying a story would ruin the game, but it sure doesn''t need one.
Final Fantasy rocked. Yeah, ''ed.'' Many would argue just when it started going down the crapper, though personally I''d say their PSX era is roughly when things started going wrong. And that''s just because I loved FF3/6j and am reluctant to say the story wasn''t all that hot.
Let''s compare the storylines, excluding the NES FFs which were actually original in their plot (at the time).FF4: Dark knight becomes good and finds a purpose. Country tries to take over the world. The Evil Power (tm) is behind it. Good guy gets girl, old fuzzy sage dude dies, last boss is killed in the end and there''s a wedding.
FF5: Adventurer finds a purpose. Evil Power (tm) tries to take over the world. Good guy DOESN''T get girl, though fuzzy old dude dies anyways. Last boss is killed in the end and there''s a party.
FF6: Evil Empire''s puppet finds a reason to live. Evil Empire tries to take over the world. The Evil Power (tm), Kefka, is maniplating the strings. One of the good guys gets the girl (Locke/Celes), fuzzy knight dude dies, last boss is killed in the end, and there''s no party as such.
FF7: Ex-puppet of the Evil Empire finds a purpose. Evil Empire tries to take over the world. Some other Evil Power (tm) is behind everything else, though. Good guy gets girl (sorta), but other girl dies anyways. Last boss is killed in the end and there''s no party.
FF8: Angsty kid finds a reason to open up to others. Evil Witch tries to take over the world. Well, compress time. Whatever. Other Evil Witch is behind it all. Good guy gets the girl. No-one dies this time around (maybe Square was worried we''d see a trend?). Last boss is defeated, and there''s a big celebration.
FF9: Puppet from an other world finds a purpose and becomes sentient. Evil Empire tries to take over the world. Evil Power (tm) is behind everything. Good guy gets the girl, although ex-bad-guy-not-really-bad-just-manipulated dies. Last boss is killed in the end and there''s a wedding (or so I''ve heard; I stopped at the last boss because it just got too stupid then. WTF was the foreshadowing for Necron? AT ALL? >"<;
I can easily rig up a program to randomly turn on and off flags and spout these stories out.
- Character is a [Puppet]/[Bad Person]/[Gothic Introvert]/[Adventurer].
- [Evil Power]/[Evil Empire]/[Evil Person] tries to take over the world.
- Evil Power is behind everything.
- [True/False]: Good guy gets girl.
- [True/False]: Someone dies.
- There''s [a wedding]/[a party]/[nothing special] at the end.
---
As for GTA, this game is a very, very bad example for one reason in particular: out of every game produced, I can''t think of many who would actually work without a real story. GTA, however, works just for that reason: it has no story. For the most part, what''s really fun about it is just randomly driving around and comitting crimes or doing l33t stunts in your stolen jaguar.
It''s fun because you don''t have to worry about your character''s social standing, wether you care or not: you''re there to take names and kick asses. The game is free, unrestrictive, and allows you to get yourself into a number of situations you just wouldn''t be able to with, say, an FPS or an RPG. But I disgress; this has little to do with the story. Or lack thereof.
What made GTA was the experience, not the game itself. Although I think I''m going a bit overboard by saying a story would ruin the game, but it sure doesn''t need one.
quote: Original post by BelGarath
Think about that, it took me 2 hours to come up with all that, but if GTA3 would have had a story like that it would have been greatest game of the year... Games lack of good stories and with one you can add great deal of addictivity to your game. Its not only the contents, the environment, what the character does and all that. There has to be something more and something to make people curious and something to make people talk about the game.
First off, you wasted two good hours of your life. Shame.
Secondly, that''s not a good story.
Lastly, if Rockstar made that story a major part of the game, I''d turn it off. Some games don''t need a real storyline.
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