quote: Original post by ahw

I am wondering what you guys consider as "cheap tricks".
Why ?

Anything you can stuff into a numeric system and reflect back to the player as a reasonably approximate realistic event / behavior / action I''d consider a cheap trick.

For example, "Love or Hate" A positive or negative number an NPC might hold. Good actions increase. Bad actions decrease. So attacking is bad, and giving gifts is good.

For more finesse, a personality factor might be employed to filter out the input. So gifts given by someone you hate weigh less than attacks; and attacks by someone you adore are more easily forgiven, and gifts magnified.

Cheap trick. It doesn''t rely on a convoluted AI scheme that most of us here are unlikely to implement or complete. (No offense, ahw... but the odds are already against us. Complex AI, esp. in real-time, for indies and aspiring developers is like aiming a howitzer at the foot...)

quote:
what are friends ? Why do we have them or not, etc

To support, and be supported. That''s probably the main reason, and I think it can be translated reasonablly to game terms.

We already do it for combat, but it''s one sided (the NPC is always in an inferior position). An important element of any relationship is reciprocation. If we extended the range of support activities and states, and gave the player some way of reciprocating (and NPCs of expecting it, i.e, a measure of indebitedness) then we might create a feel of "mates" that are with you on an adventure.

quote:
For instance, you refer to smalltalk as a cheap trick ??? WTF, I have friends because I TALK to them. Small talk or not, it doesnt matter. The talking is a way to keep in touch, to just show that there is a connection, it''s a pleasure I share, something I need in order to keep the bonds alive with them.

There is nothing worse than a game where you share an entire adventure with mute NPCs following you around, ready to sacrifice their lives for you, but that wont utter a word unless it is a necessary part of the scenario.

The thing that turns me white with fear here (no mean feat given my ethnicity ) is how difficult dialog is to do: You run into walls like the impossibility of NLP, or the lameness of branching dialogs and their sheer size, or the difficulty language presents a symbolic communication scheme... ugly!

Story based games have it easier, but I''m eternally looking for a replayable method. Dialog needs to be as replayable as combat. (I and Naz and I''m sure others have ideas on this...)

You are ENTIRELY correct, though: Communication is one of the most satisfying parts of any relationship. Nothing would be better than if you and your mates could swap tales, or process events, or just comment on the experience ("You see the size of that DRAGON?!!!!"). The difficulty is just simulating this with a CPU.


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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Nazrix

Well, firstly I think it''s important to note that I don''t think NPCs need to accompany the player to be a friend. Just a shopkeeper showing that he/she remembers the player by making a reference to a previous interaction they had or something could be a step in the right direction.

Agreed. Fallout 1 almost got this right. There were some shopkeepers who''d comment on how long you''d been away, or what you purchased last. They didn''t quite do it right (one I remember kept repeating her lines, and out of context) but they go close.

Keeping a counter on how long the player''s been gone, btw, would be another thing that I''d classify as a "cheap trick" that would be effective.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

What do you guys think of this? It''s mechanistic, but a start...

If we ever are to have any hope modeling friendship we need some measurements. One useful measure could be reciprocation: Have you helped me? Have I helped you? When? How much?

Above I mentioned the notion of indebitedness. "You owe me." Gifts, favors, assistance, information... These could all be a way of measuring indebitedness. The action of giving places another in your debt (based on the value of the gift); and taking / accepting makes you indebited to another.

Since reciprocation is a roughly equal exchange, indebitedness could help us determine the health of the friendship. Lopsided exchanges with little or no return would damage the friendship. Lack of exchange would also cause it to wither (say, turning it into a "former" friendship). The NPC''s personality (and the player''s) would buffer how this works: Some people are more forgiving and flexible about imbalances than others.

Volume of exchange, or what is owed, would determine depth. This would make a "life debt" friendship deeper than the one you have with the local shopkeeper. It should be harder to have a high volume of exchange with someone you barely know: In this way, the millionare who goes around buying everybody gifts isn''t really their friend.

The exchange system would be very much like barter. The value of an exchange would be determined more by the NPC''s personal factors-- such as personality or condition-- than by some innate value. Thus the gift of a gold sword might mean little to a monk who collects ancient scrolls, and an ancient text you found might mean nothing to the mighty King. Vice versa, however...

How to make this work in gameplay

For the NPC, we can measure each exchange and monitor the balance. According to personality, the NPC would want to keep the balance a certain way.

Players need some indicator of the balance, without being told outright (unless his friend is Ivana Trump). Dialog can hint at it, but I woundn''t be opposed to some sophistocated status bar / log, either. (Heck, real relationships are tough enough...)

I suggest allowing the NPC to "test" the friendship by getting into debt with the player. Asking for assistance, or loans, or aid in a quest would be great ways for the player to not only get involved in the NPC''s simulated life, but prove friendship as well. We could really have fun with this: What does the player do when asked to do something illegal? Or something that threatens his own reputation? Or might cause him great risk? These little details could alter the gaming experience, and define the player''s adventure

This could be a start...

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Just waiting for the mothership...

Wavinator,

I like it

The statusbar may not be such a bad thing. I remember an SNES game that had something like this (don't laugh) - there was a gem on the corner of the screen, and it would change color when you were interacting with an npc - based on their opinion of you. I remember this being a neat gimmick, but that was some time ago. One of the Breath of Fire games - I don't know if the PSX ones do the same thing.

Now, could an NPC track down a player somehow to request a favor? It seems like players are for the most part "homeless heros", and travel from place to place quite often. I could see the favors requested by other "homeless heros" being quite different from those being requested by "normals", and the ones being reciprocated being quite different as well. That is why I mention a "place to sleep".

Would it be interesting to have a player actually have a home? Perhaps they could be a regional hero, taking care of problems in a single city or small region. But I'm off topic

Wait, maybe not - this could possibly allow the player to become more attached to their NPC friends (that aren't homeless heros) - gives them more recurrence, without them having to follow you around. Could this give the player a reason to be heroic???

I don't really like NPCs that follow you around without a reason. It seems like alot of games do this:

quote:
Player: "Hi, I'm the 'Player', you want to follow me around, and risk your life for me?"

NPC: "Ok"

Player: "Great, can you let me take all of your stuff too?"

NPC: "Sure"

That's just wrong...

There should be some sort of motivation before it gets to that, and I think you're on the right path When they get what they want, they could leave the player, unless they're somehow indebted, and retire, or otherwise get on with their lives. And just because your friends, doesn't mean you have to follow each other around everywhere.

I think the NPC turning the tables on the player, and asking for a favor is a great idea.

-pwd

Edited by - pwd on January 27, 2001 11:20:02 PM

quote: Original post by pwd
Now, could an NPC track down a player somehow to request a favor?

Daggerfall used letters. A courier would hand you a letter from an NPC that would say to meet that somewhere. If your game is set in the future then it''s probably even easier. You could use some sort of communication device.

quote:
Would it be interesting to have a player actually have a home? Perhaps they could be a regional hero, taking care of problems in a single city or small region. But I''m off topic

In Daggefall, you could own a house and/or boat.






"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

quote:
Nazrix:
Daggerfall used letters. A courier would hand you a letter from an NPC that would say to meet that somewhere. If your game is set in the future then it''s probably even easier. You could use some sort of communication device.

That could work

quote:
Nazrix
In Daggefall, you could own a house and/or boat.

Did it give you some attachment to where you bought your house? Would the player "settle down" when they got a house, or were they still the "homeless hero", and they just happened to own a piece of property somewhere? Angband let you buy a house, but it didn''t really mean anything (other than a place to dump stuff you didn''t want to carry around). If it did mean something, I would be interested in hearing how they did it

-pwd

quote: Original post by pwd

Did it give you some attachment to where you bought your house? Would the player "settle down" when they got a house, or were they still the "homeless hero", and they just happened to own a piece of property somewhere? Angband let you buy a house, but it didn''t really mean anything (other than a place to dump stuff you didn''t want to carry around). If it did mean something, I would be interested in hearing how they did it

-pwd

No. You''re right. It was a place to drop off items. Although, Morrowind (the next game after Daggerfall) is supposed to give the option for more than that. I''m not sure how much more yet though.






"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

This is probably off topic

Nazrix,
That is a pity, actually having a "home" (not just a house), where you have friends and neighbors could be interesting. It could work out to a motivating factor, protecting your town, your friends, your neighbors. Not just being a "homeless hero" and wandering the world aimlessly in search of adventure...

NPCs would recurr, because you would run into them on a regular basis, and you could potentially get a greater attachment to them, if they were done right

Maybe a situation like Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser, you would have a city that you called "home", and you could find out about adventures from travellers or those looking to hire your services... When you completed a journey, you would return to the city, spend your spoils, and maybe have little situations while waiting for another great adventure to come up...

-pwd

pwd,
Don''t worry if it''s slightly off-topic. Wav doesn''t mind

I agree that would be very interesting. Daggerfall sort of gave that sense of returning to the town after an adventure and enjoying a leisurely night at the local inn, getting some supplies, visiting a guild, then going out for more adventure.

I really think Daggerfall captured that a little bit whether they meant to or not. Now, if we can figure out how to take this even further.





"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Nazrix,

Maybe give the town/city/whatever more personality... Sticking to my example, just trying to fence what you earned during an adventure could be a little mini-adventure, with trying not to get cheated by the criminal element.

Give the city as a whole it''s own personality/quirks. Not the city has: a thieves guild, a warriors guild, a few inns, a general store, etc. More, "you''ve got to watch the innkeeper at the Red Walrus Inn, or he''ll rob you blind if you get drunk". The "home" wouldn''t be perfect, but it should be a comfort to the player - let it have its'' little intrigues and let the player possibly get involved if they choose. But let it also be a place for the player to rest, and maybe have a little simple enjoyment...

-pwd